Tier 3 Toxicate- Raticate, Hypnotoxic Laser, Sableye

Discussion in 'BLW-on Archives' started by ChadThewookie, Feb 9, 2013.

Moderators: baby_mario, galladeava
  1. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    The idea behind this deck is pretty simple- Get Raticate set up and use his attack, Super Fang, with Hypnotoxic Laser for an OHKO on any Pokemon, and use Sableye to get the Hypnotoxic Lasers back from the discard pile when necessary.

    Pokemon - 16

    4 Rattata
    4 Raticate
    3 Sableye
    2 Tynamo
    2 Eelektrik
    1 Victini

    Trainers - 29

    4 Hypnotoxic Laser
    4 Level Balls
    2 Ultra Balls
    1 Energy Search
    2 Random Receivers
    1 Computer Search
    2 Pokemon Catcher
    2 Super Rod

    4 Juniper
    3 N
    2 Colress

    2 Skyarrow Bridge

    Energy - 15

    4 Double Colorless Energy
    4 Darkness Energy
    7 Lightning Energy

    So the idea is to get Raticate set up by T2 with with a hypnotoxic laser for an OHKO on any Pokemon, and then keep the momentum going with the Eels and DCE providing energy acceleration, and Sableye getting the hypnotoxic lasers or anything else useful like level ball or random receiver back from the discard pile. Victini is basically there to stall if the deck loses momentum for a turn or two -- both Tynamo and Rattata have a single-energy coin-flip paralysis attack. The Ultra Balls are there to help get out Pokemon as well as to ensure that there are Lightning energy cards in the discard pile for Dynamotor to work. The lack of Skyla is two-fold -- the first reason is that I didn't want to run her with random receiver. The second is that I find it very necessary for an evolution deck like mine to play a card-getting supporter like Juniper or N every turn in the beginning of the game for it to work right. Not only would using Skyla screw that up, but by the time a supporter-every-turn is no longer necessary, there are enough cards in my discard pile for Sableye to get most of the cards I want. Skyarrow Bridge is there because not only does it knock out potential opponent Stadium cards like Virbank City, but with it all of my Pokemon have a free retreat except Eelektrik, and that means I don't need any switches.

    I don't run any EX's, like Mew or even Mewtwo, or any HP increasing cards like giant cape or Aspertia City, because the idea of this deck is that my opponent will kill my Raticate after almost every turn I attack with him, but I will still win by drawing more prize cards than my opponent. The prevalence of level balls, ultra balls, and super rods insure that I will almost always have a benched Rattata/Raticate, so the Raticate's automatic KO won't set me back that much. Since I can kill any Pokemon with one attack, I will be drawing more prize cards than my opponent, because I can catcher and kill their EX with one attack, and then they kill my normal Pokemon with one attack. This deck is built with the assumption that trying to stop my opponent from OHKOing my Raticates is pointless, especially with the prevalence of tool scrapper, but that I can still win by taking more prize cards per KO than my opponent.
    That's pretty much it -- any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.
  2. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod. Staff Member

    This thread is APPROVED as it made a decent showing in the UK from what I've been told. Looks like an interesting deck, so long as it dodges Darkrai.
  3. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod. Staff Member

    Tier three until we get in more results, but it's definitely above league deck status.
  4. coolestman22

    coolestman22 Now Has Techron

    You seem to be depending on Hypnotoxic Laser and your opponent using EX's quite a bit. What if they go for your Eels instead of your raticate?
  5. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    All the better if they do. I still have a fully charged Raticate ready to go, and with DCE I really only need one Eelektrik for the deck to work properly, and there is suddenly no pressing need for energy acceleration. If they kill my other Eelektrik, that's what Super Rod is for.

    And what deck doesn't use EX's?
  6. Darkrye

    Darkrye Person...maybe...
    is an Underground Member

    Interesting idea, but watch for Landorus too. Tons of potential for a 3-turn, 6 prize stomping using only 1 energy...even if you go first.
  7. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    Hmmmm. I'm considering putting in Mr. Mime, when it comes out, for Landorus/Darkrai defense.
  8. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    No Ditto? They serve as a "buffer" for both Rattata and Tynamo. Sadly haven't been able to test a recent build yet to know if they are truly worth it, so if you have tested and they aren't, feel free to let me know. That and Rescue Scarf seem like good investments for the deck.

    Also, is Victini really worth it? I can see it being useful in a metagame that is either way behind or ahead of the curve, but with Hypnotoxic Laser usage expected to be high, seems like the general rule of thumb that decks are packing enough Switch, Escape Rope, or the Keldeo EX/Darkrai EX combo to fend Special Conditions off.
  9. davidryuubryan

    davidryuubryan Dark type Gym Leader

    The only pokemon this can not ko..is POKEMON that can heal damage between turns (anytime between) or if they put espeon in there deck. The card that comes to mind is Cresselia ex..which is a good mew2 counter.
  10. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    I tried putting in Dittos for a while, but they were almost worthless. Anything beyond drawing them beginning-game and they became space in my deck that I was wasting. Considering the fact the chance of me being able to put a Rattata on the bench T1 are extremely high, with 4 Lvl Ball, two Ultra Balls, and 4 Rattatas, it doesn't really seem worth it to put in Dittos just as a Landorus counter, especially considering the fact that Ditto has fighting weakness anyway. The unfortunate fact is that this deck will do poorly against Landorus decks, no use making it worse against other decks too. However, against Darkrai decks, paralysis is a very potent tool, seeing as they rely on free retreats and no switches, and you can't retreat while you're paralyzed. Victini seems like a better investment, to me, against Darkrai/Landorus than Ditto.

    I considered Rescue Scarf, but with the prevalence of Tool Scrapper, it didn't seem worth it, espicially if I don't run Ditto, because then the cards I get back have a minimum of two turns to be useful. I prefer Super Rod as the method of getting Pokemon from the discard.
  11. Slowbro

    Slowbro is excited for next season

    I'm not sure if ditto would actually do anything. If it gets 30 damage on it, you can't transform into rattata. 40 with Tynamo.
  12. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~
    is an Underground Member

    Wow, it made Tier-3. That's a very impressive achievement all on it's own.
  13. coolestman22

    coolestman22 Now Has Techron

    Plenty of decks use non-EX attackers.


    You know what I want to see in here? Rocky Helmet. It helps you out when you don't hit the HTL.
  14. Slowbro

    Slowbro is excited for next season

    Using non-EX attackers =/= not using EX's.
  15. coolestman22

    coolestman22 Now Has Techron

    Yes, and those decks can simply attack with the non EX attackers that still kill Raticate in one hit.
  16. Slowbro

    Slowbro is excited for next season

    They run enough EX's that you can kill three of them. And Sableye, Blastoise, Klingklang, and Eelektrik aren't really threatening to Raticate.
  17. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    One the use of Ditto:

    Ditto exists to surprise your opponent, and can be used multiple ways. Rattata has 30 HP; Darkrai EX hits for 90 and 30, remember? That OHKOs a Raticate and a Benched Rattata. The Darkrai EX player takes two Prizes and prevents you from pulling off a OHKO next turn... unless you had three Rattata out (one already Evolved into Raticate, of course).

    Ditto allows the deck to use Max Potion to heal all damage (unless it was OHKOed). Rattata doesn't even have enough HP to take full advantage of a normal Potion. This also gives you the option to change plans; Ditto can become what you need it to be.

    On the use of Victini:

    ...decks still aren't standardizing at least one Switch (just a Skyla away) or Keldeo EX alongside Darkrai EX? I wonder if part of why this deck doesn't feel it can use Skyla or Ditto is because it has a little too much "going on". Pure speculation on my part, though. =P

    On the use of Rocky Helmet:

    Tool Scrapper, Max Potion, and alternate attackers make this a very questionable strategy. If you don't have Hypnotoxic Laser, the deck is failing. If the deck didn't have a better use for Tool slots (both in play and in general deck construction), it would be a different story.
  18. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    Ditto- Ditto exists to surprise your opponent, yes, but there are only two evolution lines in the deck, and so the options for surprise are limited. But suppose you run a couple of Dittos, and some Max potions as well because Ditto wouldn't be all that useful without them, and throw in some Skyla too to help get out the Max Potions and other stuff, what would you suggest be taken out, aside from a Victini? Victini is only one card in the deck, and while he is situational, i.e. he only works against Darkrai and in some situations Keldeo, Ditto is also situational, and he's a minimum of five new cards in the deck- 2 Ditto, 2 Max Potion, and 1 Skyla. Would it really be worth that many cards, to stop a benched pokemon from being sniped, but then you have to bring out a Max Potion so he's not dead weight on the bench?
  19. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Pokemon - 18
    3 Ditto
    3 Eelektrik
    3 Emolga
    2 Raticate
    2 Rattata
    3 Tynamo
    2 Zekrom

    Trainers - 34
    1 Bicycle
    2 Colress
    1 Dowsing Machine
    4 Hypnotoxic Laser
    2 Level Balls
    2 Max Potion
    3 N
    4 Pokemon Catcher
    4 Professor Juniper
    1 Random Receiver
    2 Rescue Scarf
    3 Skyla
    1 Switch (Escape Rope?)
    1 Super Rod
    3 Ultra Balls

    Energy x 8
    8 Lightning Energy

    Obviously untested, and taking a slightly different approach.

    Pokémon
    Ditto is now here because
    1. Reducing the likelihood of starting with Rattata or Tynamo without actually running more Pokémon.
    2. Can become any of the other four Basic Pokémon after the fact.
    3. Allows me to grab a Raticate back with Rescue Scarf and immediately Transform then Evolve (provided that is a good move).
    4. When encountering spread attacks, or something that can OHKO a smaller Pokémon but not Ditto, it acts as a buffer, giving me the option to heal it.
    5. Decoy - better an opponent focus on KOing it (even leaving it "dead" on the Bench from spread/snipe) than put the same effort towards the Pokémon I really need.
    Emolga joins the team, replacing Sableye. Sableye was valuable as it could reclaim Hypnotoxic Laser and Pokémon Catcher... but it also requires running another Energy Type. That turn you let up is also a turn for your opponent to turn the tables. So Emolga serves to fetch two Basic Pokémon from the deck (and its Energy will be compatible with Dynamotor, so no real loss there), and as a free Retreating Pokémon to bring up after an opponent vaporizes a Raticate.

    Eelekrik is more important to my build, hence it and Tynamo being at a three count. Finally Zekrom is batting clean up. It can even be used as a deceptive opener, luring the opponent into building up something to take it down, only for Raticate/Hypnotoxic Laser to pseudo-OHKO said attacker.

    Trainers
    12 Supporters, 22 Items, three of which are pseudo-Supporters. Skayrrow Bridge was basically just for a stranded Tynamo opening Basic (that wasn't likely to survive anyway) or Sableye, so I cut it and didn't find an adequate replacement; there are some that would definitely help this deck but they ultimately help the opponent more.

    Bicycle is in so that a Skyla can act as draw power, if needed. Unless of course Bicycle is in your Prizes or hand already, which frankly isn't a bad thing. Your deck should actually be filling its Bench pretty handily, but at the same time hopefully taking something out in one shot each turn that your opponent has, so I left it at two Colress. So many Trainers means that Dowsing Machine gives more bang for your buck than Computer Search.

    Hypnotoxic Laser and Computer Search are crucial to this deck, so they remain maxed out. Level Ball is great but I only have so much room, and as I need a way of discarding Energy, I favored Ultra Ball more. Max Potion helps with Ditto tricks as well as Zekrom. N and Professor Juniper are important draw cards, but N is a bit risky; the nature of this deck exacerbates the reliability/backfiring issues it has. Juniper hopefully is only discarding Lightning Energy or spare copies of Pokémon, as most Trainers will likely be used once drawn.

    I included a clutch Random Receiver, doing its usual thing and standing in for an extra Supporter; this is the exact kind of thing I need to test to refine. I mean, it might be better to add a second Bicycle, or to drop Bicycle all together and stick to Random Receiver (even though I can't turn a top-decked Skyla into a four card hand with Random Receiver).

    Rescue Scarf helps me bounce my rats. Of course, I would like more, but this is another time when I am uncertain what to cut for more space; maybe a Max Potion. Skyla is why I can live with so many "one of" Items: there are plenty of threats in the game that need a key response to, but running that response heavily enough to draw into it kills momentum. Plus it just makes it even less likely one will lack that final Hypnotoxic Laser or Pokémon Catcher.

    Switch is there just in case I really need it, and I wonder if it should be an Escape Rope; extra disruption can be good, but this is the exact kind of deck that needs to get specific OHKOs. A single Super Rod is sort of general purpose.

    Energy
    The beauty of Eelektrik decks, I thought, were the low Energy counts. Double Colorless Energy is good, but it can't be searched or easily retrieved from the discard pile. Raticate really should be OHKOed, so fielding an extra Eelektrik and sticking to all basic Lightning Energy seemed prudent. Yes, I have made the deck more dependent upon Eelektrik in doing this, but that also allows additional power.

    Again, this is all untested, and I realize it could be complete and utter rubbish... but it was a request, right ChadThewookie
  20. ChadThewookie

    ChadThewookie New Member

    Yep, I did ask you. I think this is an interesting take, but if you don't mind I want to ask you a few questions about the new build.

    First of all- why 3 Emolga's? You said Emolga was in the deck for two reasons- to help set up the deck and to provide free retreat. Well, if you take out 2 Emolgas and put in two level balls, you still have the same chance of drawing a card that puts Emolga out T1, but now you also have more cards that can search out any Pokemon in the deck except Zekrom. Also, if you put Skyarrow Bridge back in, Rattata Tynamo and Ditto all have free retreats, and the chances of having one of them out is a lot better than the chances of have one of three Emolga's out.

    Further, I get that you made this deck into something a little bit more than a Raticate Deck, but Zekrom is still the only Pokemon aside from Raticate that does any damage, and there's only two of him. Do you really think that you can make the entire game with only 4 HTL, especially running 4 Junipers?

    Your decklist halves the thickness of the Raticate line, as well as halving the Lvl Ball count and the Super Rod count and it only increases the Ultra Ball count by one. What happens if you have to Juniper your one and only Super Rod, and then your opponent kills both your Raticates? Aside from Dowsing MCHN, you're just stuck playing a really strange, really unfocused Zekeels deck. Rescue Scarf might help you out a little bit, but, as previously mentioned, most decks run enough Tool Scrapper/Skyla for it not to be all that effective.


    Pokemon- 18

    3 Rattata
    3 Raticate
    3 Sableye
    3 Tynamo
    3 Eelektrik
    2 Zekrom
    1 Emolga

    Trainers- 29
    3 Lvl Ball
    3 Ultra Balls
    4 Hypnotoxic Laser
    2 Random Recievers
    2 Pokemon Catcher
    2 Super Rod
    1 Energy Search
    1 Computer Search

    4 Juniper
    3 N
    2 Colress
    1 Skyla

    2 Skyarrow Bridge

    Energy- 12
    8 Lightning
    4 Darkness


    Pokemon- As mentioned, I took out the 2 Emolga's in favor of more Pokemon getting items, since you only really need one Emolga if this deck is playing Skyarrow Bridge. I also thickened the Raticate line and kept the Eelektriks the same. The addition of another Tynamo and Eelektrik I thought was a good idea, and so I left it.

    As far as Ditto goes, here is what you said about his helpfulness-

    Ditto is now here because
    1. Reducing the likelihood of starting with Rattata or Tynamo without actually running more Pokémon.
    2. Can become any of the other four Basic Pokémon after the fact.
    3. Allows me to grab a Raticate back with Rescue Scarf and immediately Transform then Evolve (provided that is a good move).
    4. When encountering spread attacks, or something that can OHKO a smaller Pokémon but not Ditto, it acts as a buffer, giving me the option to heal it.
    5. Decoy - better an opponent focus on KOing it (even leaving it "dead" on the Bench from spread/snipe) than put the same effort towards the Pokémon I really need.

    For number 1, we still have the same likelihood of starting with Rattata or Tynamo as the leading Pokemon, because now we have 3 Sableyes who can fill that space, who have the same HP as well as the same weakness.
    For number 2, while this is an interesting and probably helpful tool, one of Ditto main usages, that is to evolve on the same turn you lay a basic, doesn't work with Emolga and Zekrom because, obviously, they don't evolve. While taking out Ditto removes the surprise effect, I still don't think keeping him in is worth it.
    For number three, as mentioned, I don't think this strategy will work very well because of Tool Scrapper.
    For number 4, spread attacks, Ditto is not all that useful. Sure your opponent doesn't take a prize as easily, but like I said, Ditto is just dead weight until you can heal him, and those max potions are just another card in the deck specifically so that Ditto will function.
    For number five, most opponents who know what they are doing won't waste time trying to kill your Dittos, especially if your obvious main attacker, Raticate, has less HP than Ditto does.

    I kept Zekrom in here because I like the idea of how well he fits in the deck, in addition to the fact that he can really help kill those pesky "non-ex attackers" that were mentioned previously

    Sableye fills the vacuum left by me runnig no Ditto very nicely. While yes, I have to run twelve Energies, it is very worth it for the ability to get HTL, Catcher, Random Receiver, Computer Search or Level Ball Back from the discard. The deck relies heavily on HTL- it would be a shame if a mixture of bad discarding luck and lack of Sableyes lost your games.


    Trainers

    I run another Level Ball because I really like it's ability to get almost every Pokemon in my deck.

    I run 2 Random receivers because, with only 1 Skyla, they are really useful, and in a pinch Sableye can get them out from the discard.

    I took out the Max Potions and the Rescue Scarves because they were pointless without Ditto.

    I run Computer Search because Sableye is now there to get my cards back the discard.

    I run 1 Skyla just for a little deck consistency increase, but with 9 other supporters, a Computer Search, 2 Random Receivers, and no Max Potion or Rescue Scarf, I decided not to run anymore.

    Skyarrow Bridge is back in because Sableye is back in too, and with it Zekrom's retreat cost is only one - annoying, but manageable.

    Energy
    I run the additional 4 Darkness energy for Sableye.


    I think this deck would work a little bit better, but like you, I haven't tested it out yet. Thoughts?