Discussion in 'Deck Help & Development' started by VictiniCup, Jun 12, 2013.
It can't be good you can level ball for an ex , lugia free 3 prizes
Every deck you play wont be a lugia deck. I haven't seen a single lugia on PlayTCG
I haven't seen anything good on PlayTCG.
Also, Jirachi can attack. It isn't a good attack, but it can stall sort of. Supporters can't attack.
They all said I was crazy.... that Jirachi EX would be useless, yet someone else has seen it's potential! Kudos.
A ridiculously expensive and awful attack is it's golden use! Lovely! This thread is crazy.
Not necessarily this thread, just me!
Dude, calm down. You don't get to just say you're right and everyone else is crazy by default. I think upping supporter outs from, say, 13 to 17 by changing one card in the list is pretty impactful. Nobody says you MUST play Jirachi every game (you don't play all of your supporters each game, do you?), but when you need a supporter, you really do need a supporter and each out changes the game for you. You also act like it automatically is 2 free prizes when you play it down- but as we know, that's not how the game works. If they catcher it up over a non-EX (Kyurem, Bouff, Absol, Sableye, etc.), that's only 1 extra prize they get. Maybe they need the catcher to KO it, where they might be able to KO your EX attacker if they got, for example, a laser (Darkrai 110+30+30 poison=170...). If you use it on the last turn to get what you need, you don't leave it open to attacks. Maybe your EX attacker is damaged, so an attack that would KO Jirachi would KO it also. Maybe your opponent would be forced to deal with a loaded attacker- KOing Jirachi would leave them open to get hit by a big attack.
You act as if there's no reason to play Jirachi, but nearly any player will tell you expanding supporter outs is actually a big deal.
The notion of attacking with Jirachi is pretty crazy, you must admit.
I think if you drop your supporter count to 13, you kind of have to play Jirachi at some point and that's my problem with it. The idea of being able to cut down a bunch of cards just for the option of trading prizes for a supporter is neat, but you significantly raise your chance of needing to take that option.
In a 6 prize game, that one extra prize is a really big deal. And they will more often than not be able to get that Jirachi and will go for it. If they can get your EX attacker in the turn instead, you've still left Jirachi on the bench for next turn, too! I've already noted that a Jirachi to get the last supporter you need for game is fine, but that's like saying it's totally okay to run Lillipup BC so long as it's played down to attack for game.
It's easy to justify things in these very unique and unlikely scenarios you propose. And honestly, I'm not often in need of a supporter for game. Sometimes, but even then you can still draw poorly on a Juniper and lose it all.
Are you now suggesting you can play Jirachi-EX down as just bait? Two prizes to convince your opponent to promote their attacker? (Most likely an EX you can't OHKO back) That's kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel for utility and even then it's still a poor argument. Quite the expensive Escape Rope you're running, isn't it?
Expanding supporters is a big deal! That's why we run high counts!
Don't think I'm declaring myself undeniably right- we'll see. Maybe Jirachi-EX will make it into the winning list at Worlds. But my bet is definitely against it, and I think we're going to see it reflected in testing when the card's released.
Maybe quad Jirachi EX will be a thing. #Sarcastic
Hmm... Maybe. With an attack that good. Like QuadDarkrai, really.
Ok, attacking with it is crazy, you're right. 13 supporters is on the low end, but it's what I run typically in a list where I need the space. Even if you're running 15 already, 15 to 19 supporter outs is a big deal. You say "just run more," but that takes a lot more space. Running 19 supporters is a crappy use of deck space. Efficient lists- ones that can use the same cards in many ways and have many outs for what they need- are always better. For example, Ultra Ball is used in mosts lists, even ones that have all of their Pokemon not maxed out because it is a space-efficient card- it counts as an extra out to ALL of your Pokemon (ex. 3 Landy, 3 Mewtwo, 3-2 Garbodor would rather have 4 ultra ball than go to 4/4/4-3). This makes Ultra Ball even more versatile- a card that can get any Pokemon OR any supporter and isn't a supporter itself is very very good.
You're not seriously comparing Jirachi EX to Lillipup BC, are you?
I don't think these scenarios are really that unlikely, they happen pretty often and are pretty general. I think you misunderstood one of them though, I never said to use it as bait. I said, sometimes they have to deal with your attacker and can't afford to catcher a bench sitter. If you have energy on a Kyurem or Lugia EX, for example, they might have to hit that in an attempt to stop it from wrecking their field.
It seems like it could have potential. It might seem like a good tech, but then you would have to use up a lot of spots with Super Scoop Ups and such. Pluse 90 HP on an EX? WHY!!!? That is just to little. I would only recommend it as a 1 of in Klinklang, if you feel like teching out your deck. who knows? this could be our formats new Jolteon EX!
Then again, maybe not...
Ah, you're right. I did misunderstand. I thought you proposed that Jirachi-EX could be played down to goat them into not attacking your main player. Oh well.
Listen, I've argued it to death. The notion of cutting two to four supporters is cute, but I never want to catch myself in the situation that I have to risk two prizes for it. I'd just play it safer. Efficiency versus consistency, but I'll stick with my gut on this one.
I think that it can and will be used, but it's not a black & white sort of thing: It won't just be binder candy, but it won't be the BCIF.
Everyone gets a Supporter drought at some point, and everyone runs search cards like Ultra Ball and Level Ball.
Let's put this into perspective: if you're running 13 Supporters, and 3-4 in combination of Ultra Ball and Level Ball, a single Jirachi in the deck could theoretically bump your supporter count up to 16-17. Yes, the 90 HP is a liability, but no matter what deck you play, there's always going to be a risk.
I mean, at some point or another, you're going to get N'd to 1, you're going to supporter drought, and you're going to whiff the card you need. It's impossible to avoid these things. Giving you an extra out to the cards you need can't hurt.
tl;dr It's not the BCIF, but it's good.
Here's a thought:
What're the odds I'll get N'd down to 1 and it'll be a Level Ball over a supporter? Assuming we're 5 prizes into the game, I'll have played most of them and even Ultra Balls don't do anything for me when I'm at 1.
But having the single Jirachi still ups the chance of hitting the supporter in anything running Level Ball.
Y-yes, factually it does.
But how are the statistics is what I'm saying! Is it really good enough odds to warrant running it, even dropping a bunch of supporters to "make the most of it"?
Wynaut just one supporter?
No, don't drop supporters, leave your count the same unless you are running a rediculous amount of supporters.
Yeah, I don't think anyone has recommended dropping supporter counts for this guy. It's not THAT good.
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